Josephine Kalipeni

This episode features Josie Kalipeni, a community leader, organizer, entrepreneur, and dedicated caregiver, who discusses leading as a woman, immigrant, and person of color, the challenges she has faced, and practical insights on care, identity, and resilience.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is Shonda Causer, and you're listening to Call's Reaction. Thank you for being here. I'm excited for this segment where we talk to Josie Calapini. She's a community leader, organizer, entrepreneur, and most importantly, caregiver. We explore the challenges and lessons of leading as a woman, an immigrant, and a person of color. Your here are practical insights of care, identity, and resilience to help you navigate your own journey. Thank you for tuning in. Like, follow, share to keep these conversations going. Let's jump in. Hey Shonda. Thank you for making time with me today. Always. You know a little bit about our show where we're just having a conversation, and I know who you are, but the audience don't know who you are.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Who are you? Well, my name is Josephine Callapeni. I go by Josie. I am from Malawi, Africa. Migrated here in the late 80s with my mom to meet my dad who was in school and working. I'm the oldest of six. I'm a proud auntie of one, soon to be two. I'm so excited about that. I consider myself an organizer. Much of my brain thinks lots about political and policy power and campaigns. My career has spanned both research and development of social policy and revenue development campaigns, particularly health care, equity issues, economic and social justice issues, really focused on Medicaid and pay family and medical leave. And my heart and soul is in equitable aging and caregiving in this country. And the world around us needs to do more to create a more level playing field so people can live and thrive on their own terms.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Love that. I love that. And I, you know, when I first met you, Josie, and you explained that you were from Malawi, and I said, Oh yeah, I have a lot of friends who are, you know, from Malawi. And you like questioned if I did, and you explained that it was like not Hawaii, like it's being packaged to go. I was just like, that's a weird response. Like, why would anybody get that confused? So I thought you thought I was stupid.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

I have I do not think you're stupid. I've long learned that you're not stupid. But my first response usually when I say I'm from Malawi, people are like, oh Maui. I'm like, that's not it. That's not it.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Okay, listen, I've asked everybody when on the calls with me, like this one thing, and I started this because I, you know, I've been up a lot at night, and I do a lot of things at night. Not nothing that's productive that's gonna be life-changing or set my next day up for success, but I'm just up thinking about things. I'm curious, if any, what keeps you up at night?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

I will say there's definitely a few things that keep me up at night, which usually means then I'm like thinking and writing and researching and online and all of these things. Um, I'm constantly thinking about, um, I think, you know, because of my position in my family, I'm constantly thinking about how sorry, what's your position in your family? So I'm the oldest of six, but I'm also in a lot of different caregiving functions. Sometimes sometimes it's repo remote, sometimes it's in person. Um, you know, and and just, you know, we're very close family. And so, you know, just lots is coming our way. We're very supportive, very, yeah, just very communal. And so, you know, because of that, I'm constantly thinking about how my mom is going to age, you know, how what does her next five years, 10 years, 15 years look like as far as her quality of life? And she's a, you know, she is a spring chicken in her 60s, you know, but I think about her health and which one of, you know, whether it's me or one of my siblings, what's going to have to change about our lives to make sure that she has quality care? How much, you know, out-of-pocket cost is that going to mean for any of us, all of us? How disruptive is her caregiving going to mean for any one of our lives? What is it going to mean for where she is, what her home looks like, what her life and social life looks like. So I'm constantly thinking about her on the aging um elder care side, but then I'm also constantly thinking about my niece and soon coming nephew. My niece is a vibrant three-year-old with questions and curiosities about the world. And um, you know, and my my nephew will be here in a couple of months. And I'm just thinking about the world for them. How do we, you know, how do I help create a future that's more financially secure for them than it ever was for me? How do I make sure they have options I never had? Um, how do I make sure that they are safe, they are whole, they are healthy, that that their parents have everything they need to be the best parents they can be, the support that they need. Um, and so I'm constantly thinking about these two, you know, sort of aging, um, these two sort of aging uh polar opposites of the of the of the life spectrum. Um, so that keeps me, that constantly keeps me up at night. Um and then I will just say just overall financial security for myself, for my family, for the people around me that I know are, you know, either struggling or not struggling, but trying to figure out how to make it up the next rung of the ladder, knowing that finances is such a huge determining factor of health, of success, of wellness, um, particularly in this country. So I'm constantly thinking about the economic well-being of myself, my family, the people around me. That's definitely keeping me up. Um, and Shonda, you and I have talked about this a little bit, but I am dreaming more and more and more and more of moving back to Malawi or moving back um to the continent. And so that, you know, that keeps me up with a little bit of joy, a little bit of anxiety. I'm trying to think through what my three to five year plan is to make that happen, all the things that have to happen in between then. Um, but really, you know, I I'm spending some time thinking about how I get how I get out of here.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I mean, sure, everybody's trying to get out right now. Well, a lot of people are. That's yes. I mean, I like my home is Carolina. We go down to the Sox, and that's not far enough. So I gotta figure out something else. But Josie, what you shared just now, what was coming up for me is just like, okay, that's classic caregiver, but like, are you getting the care that you need? Who's up at night thinking about Josie?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I will say that that is always that is always my challenge. I'm always, always, always telling myself, I can't pour from an empty cup. I'm good, I'm not good for anybody if I'm not my whole self, what best self. Um, and I, you know, I don't know who's doing that. It's not me often enough. And I, you know, I have not, I am really struggling to develop the discipline and the time to put into my own self-care. Um, and I don't mean, you know, I don't mean like let me do 15 minutes of meditation, you know. Though that helps, but I'm really, you know, I just really been thinking about like a well, I need to really get more disciplined about a wellness routine because that is care. I need to get more discipline, more discipline about a sleep routine because that is, you know, that is care. But I am not doing a good job of that right now. Um, I I've never been very good at it, but I have such a commitment this year just to be better at that as I as I think about and read all the places that says, you know, how how much it damages your wellness to not get enough sleep. And, you know, thinking about aging, I keep reading all these things about how one of the best determinants of how you age is how you move right now. And I'm like, I need to be moving more, you know. Um, so I'm I'm just not doing a good job of that.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I hear that if you could squat daily, like like to be able to squat like you were gonna poop, you know, that's a good sign that you're in good health. Oh. Can you do that little?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

I I can do a little bit of that. That's interesting because I've been doing some elder caregiving work. And they definitely say that the one thing everyone should do is get like sit up and down off the couch like 10 times. If you can do that every day, you are far, far ahead.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Well, there you go. Yeah. Um, I haven't heard you talk about how you're gonna care for yourself. Clearly, though, you laid out a couple of possibilities, and honestly, Josie, it's pretty, it's pretty, it's pretty canned. You to figure out like what I want you to figure out because I'm such I'm that type of person who's really directive. Hello, you mean well, I guess here's what I'm gonna share. Like for me, the caregiving that you described as a person who was caring for their partner, their children, my mom who was out of state, you know, who has since passed away and running a national organization, that was a recipe for burnout and paramenopausal. And talking about it. And honestly, we're just talking about two years ago, so it wasn't that long ago. It's where I met you, Josie. Yeah, jumping off point. And I'm gonna be curious to think about, you know, when I met you, you know, you you are and were a rising star nationally and doing a lot of the caregiving work that you're describing right now, too. And have you reached burnout? I did.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Oh, I think I have reached burnt out burnout, burned out, then came back a little bit, then cycled back through burnout and burned out again. Like I I have completely, I feel like I've I keep, you know, it's like running bases, right? And right now, as much as I don't want it to be, I feel like burnout is home base. I really feel like right where my life is right now and how it feels a little slightly out of control, though. I will say um not having that demanding leadership role has taken a lot of air out of the pressure cooker, but I really feel like it is a sprint to get to first base, second base, third base. And then just as you're rounding third base, it's like burnout is home base. Um, and I do feel like unhealth I'm unhealthily in that cycle right now where I'm like, okay, I just I have to do this sprint for six weeks. And after six weeks, I can like, you know, literally, I can like crash for a week and then I have another six-week sprint. Um, and that's the cycle I'm really trying to get out of. Um, and it's strange because I will daydream all day about rest and care and um, you know, just a slightly slower, not even slightly, I want a significantly slower lifestyle. Um, but I feel like the only way to get there is to set yourself up for it and to invest in it and to build the elements to set yourself up for a slower lifestyle. Um, and that's what my sprint is about right now. How long have you been on this sprint? Because what is your age now? I mean, you don't have to say your age, but like, you know. Yeah, no, I'm turning 45 in October. Okay. Um, I will say I've been on this sprint for I mean, I was on the sprint when we met, so that's probably I mean, easily four years.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Okay. And so so this hasn't been a life cycle, so that's what I was really curious about because I am the oldest. Um, I am um I'm not an immigrant um child, but I do feel like a lot of pressure, especially the oldest of two um half siblings who are boys, um, just to like get it right a lot, you know. And I mean other EDs, uh, especially other black Eds, for them they're either the oldest immigrant or first in their family to dot dot dot. Um and that's just like performance that's just embedded, you know, from maybe as early as elementary school to be a high performer. And that you can work so hard and then you might not get to be 50, you know, because of that pressure that you put on yourself, not you, Josie, but like the youth of like I've worked with a lot of leaders who've lost their life early or have had some profound changes, and that worries me when I hear just do this a little bit longer and then I have time for myself.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Myself, yes, that is so true. I am I am also the oldest. Um, lots of you know, I'm holding lots of firsts myself. Um, it's interesting because this pattern, I until you said something, I didn't think about how the pattern might have been lifelong. Um uh so that's interesting. I need to reflect on that. But it is true, one of the things that is constantly haunting me is the idea that um, you know, working so hard right now for a life that you know, if you don't take care of yourself, you might not even enjoy. And that is a very, that's a very, very scary, scary thought, but also real.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah. Well, I like to bring the darkness um to the joy. No, but it is something that that that you know that I you know I wrestle with, um, even myself, because I don't think that I carve enough time out for joy in my day-to-day life. Um, and so I'm being intentional about that today, and not just today, but like these days.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Um, and so whether that's just going for a walk or a nature hike. Um, I recently went to a wilderness retreat, Josie, with all black women. Um, and it was it was really great. You know, I loved being outside in the fresh air. Um when it got to introductions and sharing stories, it was what you describe, it was stories of caregiving, um, of being tired or taking care of you know my grandmother, or I gotta help my mom with this. And I was like, oh, this is awful. And not to say that I don't want to say that their stories were awful because that's not it. There was their experience, but man, I just wanted to talk about being outside for those those moments. And so like, how do we like just like have moments of joy like when we get together? Not to say that the dark stuff is not a part of us because we are both reflections of light and dark, but like, how do we share more light, L-I-G-H-T, you know, stories that can like bring about like this like intentional energy shift, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Uh that's a really great question. I I it's interesting because I just one, I just don't think that's where people are, which is a scary, like that's actually a scary thing to say out loud, you know, now that I'm thinking about it. I'm like, that's just not where people are.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

People are not in the light.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah. I feel like people are not in the light. The world is feels heavy, the world around us feels heavy. And then the like our personal situations feel heavy. I but I I am wondering like how how do you make how do you make that shift? And I'm curious if if the shift did eventually happen, because I'm constantly wondering if like actually if what people need is a moment to get the dark out, like, and then to breathe and sit with it, and then they can transition. I don't think you can get light, any dark out.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Like, I just don't think that's possible. I mean, I don't think that's possible. I mean, I think that's like the yin and yang. I have sometimes the light and there's a dark inside of me, or I'm the dark and there's some light inside of me. Um in the moment, I could just be beep up and down the street singing the best jams, taking me back to when I was then and flying and my red eclipse, and I'm imagining, and then someone can just cut me off. And then I'm just like, you see, everybody here is ratchet. I don't even want to be here, you know. But then I'll I'll I'll you know, I'll re-reset myself and I'll keep going again. And then and then times I can reflect more, you know, more joy, and I can reflect more God. I'm watching that and when when it's happening and what it I am doing. And for me, when I am giving more of myself to the world and it's not replenishing me, uh, it's not only that I'm burnt out, but I am not joyful. So, yes, I agree that the world is like chaotic and unpredictable. Like I don't even know how to describe where we are right now. Yeah. Right. But I'm also like I'm so dang um blessed that I got some amazing friends. I have everything I need and I don't have an escape back to the continent. I, you know, I don't have all of those things. I think I need just to survive um another 24. And so I'm grateful. That's more I'm doing better than I deserve.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

I do, I do think that gratitude is such an energy shifter. Um I I think that's huge right there. I also think um the more the more we sort of recognize I I love what you said about like, I don't know that we can get the dark out. The more that we recognize that the yin and yang is actually part of it. Um, I want, you know, I just wonder what that does. Because actually, some of the narrative that's around us is like you gotta get rid of that, you gotta let it go, you gotta get past it, you gotta, you know, all these things. Yeah. And actually, like if we give ourselves permission to say, actually, that's just part of it. It's gonna be there sometimes in different levels of intensity, right? And other times it's not gonna be there. And I have to have gratitude for both because you know, both ways are are teaching me something, telling me something. Yeah, um, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah. I mean, it was coming up for me right now because I was thinking about you know that you remember Eric Abadu's song Bag Lady. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I used to sing that song, I used to like it. And my mom loved it too. And I would complain to her about situational, you know, in my life, either from like you know, achievement or relationships that I was going through. And I was very young, right? I'm in like my early 20s when that song was you know, my mom sang that song to me and said, You just gotta let all the past go and let those bags go. And Now I'm a growner woman with kids. You actually gave me a lot of those bags and trauma. So and now she was encouraging me just to let it go. Let it go. The people that I hold in account to like, you know, disruption of my life, they also say let it go and be in a bad lady. So there's like, I know I'm no, I would punch myself. I'm just like, I guess I just could be free by letting it go. And I'm deciding I have been consistent in who I am, and I'm not. And I'm also gonna find joy. So it's just gonna shift from time to time. Yeah. Those are the things I think about.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

I appreciate I really appreciate that perspective. That feels like such a relief to me to actually just be like, actually, the win is being fluid in all of it. Actually, that's the win. The win is, you know, letting the downs be downs, but not getting stuck there, enjoying the ups and not letting the downs overwhelm the ups or overshadow the ups. Like the actually the win is being fluid. I love that. I love that. Well, great. Thanks for being on the call. We solved it. We solved all of it. Yeah. Um, how are you caring for yourself? I'm curious. Okay, that's a great question. Um, I just told you I'm going on walks outside. I know you love outside.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

I love outside, you know. I think I told somebody, I eff and love trees. Um, and I celebrate every holiday, like Valentine's Day, like I want to go out. Um, today is Patty's Day, and I call one of my friends who runs a bar and I was like, Are you working today? She goes, I'm working the whole day. She goes, I'll see you soon. I was like, You sure will. Um, and I mean, I think that a lot of things about the marketing of capitalism in this country. I now now I know that people are like, these are all you know part of the systems, and that's it. But I'm gonna celebrate something. So that's how I take care of myself. I like going on trips with my kids. Some of my friends are like, You post too many pictures with your kids. You should be out in the streets with your girlfriends and dah-da-da-da. Your husband. I'm like, no, that's what I want to do. Um, I want to see new experiences through their eyes because it just makes me so happy, you know, to be a part of that. Man, what a what a privilege I get to be um these incredible little, little peoples, you know, steward. And I'm I'm a hot mess. And so they might do stand-up about how crazy I was growing up, and but I know I got to take them on some fun vacations too. So that that makes me happy, um, Josie. And that's how I take care of myself um right now. I love that. I appreciate you asking. So practical, yeah. I have a heart-pivot question though for you. Okay. It's kind of connected to our thing that we're talking about because you opened up talking about you know being a black woman, your black body, and kind of leading in your leadership journey. Um, and I work with a lot of leaders. Um, I never say women leaders across all racial lines, but I am curious about this thing that I keep hearing with women in their middle 40s and our contemporaries of being an achiever, being able to provide everything, but not able to have a partner or a partner who can meet you where you are. And I I wonder has that you know, finding someone who can achieve at your level, has that something that you've wrestled with at all?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

It has been um a real, real challenge for me for a long time. I have um a partner now, he's wonderful and still, you know, lots of challenges there. I think when you're, you know, high achieving go-getter, you're always um, you're always thinking about what's next. You're always looking at the situation from eight million angles. Um, I I find myself usually moving at a pace much faster than most people around me, which becomes challenging. Um it really, it's very, it's very challenging. It's very challenging for me. It's uh very challenging for my current partner. It took me a long time to find um to find my current partner who's you know excellent, again, kind of good balance. I used to think that um, I used to think that what would work is someone like me, um, also high achiever, go-getter, you know, and actually my current partner is very, he's very fluid and very um laid back. There are moments where that is frustrating for a personality like my, like me, but actually I see where it is um puzzle pieces that fit together. But it is very, it's very challenging. Um I, you know, I have I'm grateful for him because he's one of my reminders to slow down, um, to take a beat, to breathe, to pause. Um and, you know, but Shonda, it is, it's very challenging. It's very, very challenging um to try to do life when you're always thinking about what's next, when you're moving a million miles an hour. I I find that one of the things that I am horrible at um and constantly working on is like in my in my relationship, I'm not a good communicator. And part of that is because my brain is moving so fast that there are there are pieces I thought I communicated that actually I just moved so fast through that I never communicated. Um, and it's things like that that just cause real challenges, you know, in relationships, in my relationship. Um and and you know, I I I wonder how much of it like, you know, I definitely have a fear of not having enough resources. I have a fear of missing the moment, missing the window of opportunity. Um, and I I just think things like that are really are really challenging for relationships.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Yeah. Oh, do I know? I've been in uh with uh my partner for 22 years this October. Can you believe that? Wow, that's crazy. That is crazy, but you know, some of it is like I don't know if I remember every moment as crystal as I had thought I would, and I don't even know where the time went. Um but something that I've been wrestling with um is that you know, you're not with the same person. So some of the things that you were saying about your communication style, I recognize that in me, but um but I was also thinking that you're rebirthing everybody, you know, over time, and you don't have the relationship that you start with, you know. I know that a lot of my friends not a lot, but a good amount are either divorced or contemplating divorce, you know, uh, or can coming up with new ways to stay in relationship. High achieving women. Um and the thing that I guess is coming up for me right now is just like how much time have you, you know, grieve the relationship that is now dead for those who've been in a long-term relationship.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

And like joyfully steward the new relationship that you have to create and start again. That's a that's a hard one um for a lot of people because they're like, I don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Um yeah, that is a that is a hard one. You know, the interesting thing is like having been in leadership, Shonda, we both know that when like major changes happen to a project, you stop, right? Like you pause and you analyze like what are the impacts and what are the shifts we therefore have to make, right? Like a good leader is gonna do that. And I realize we we do not offer that in our relationships whatsoever. We just keep going. And that's hard. That's hard. My relationship today is not what it was five years ago. Yeah, I am not the same person I was even three years ago. Yeah. Um, and there has, you know, like there's been no assessment about like what are the impacts then.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yeah, you I'm a different person, and I guess going back to Baidu, I mean, you're gonna hurt yourself carrying all them bags of your relationship around like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Um I just wanted to bring back in the bag lady comment. I saw you didn't really didn't really, it didn't necessarily work, but I just wanted to go back to back.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

No, it did good, it worked. It did good.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

That was good. I see what you did. I see what you did. Thank you, Josie. Josie, we're at time. So I just want to say thank you for being um on this journey with me, um, for being a part of Carl's reaction and sharing a little bit of who you are.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

I am so honored to be in community with you and to have this conversation and to just see what's going to come out of that. I am just I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for all the nuggets I pick up from you. I'm grateful for all the times you call me. You're like, girl, what? No. Um, and for all the times that you're like, go, Josie, go, Josie. And I'm just grateful for that. Um, community is definitely one of my centers of gratitude. And I'm glad you're in that. Thank you.