Michael Vanacore

This episode features Michael Vanacore, a former community organizer, father, and faith leader from Montgomery County, Maryland; together, we examine cynicism, hope, and the world as it is, while imagining what it could be. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Sean DeCawser. Welcome to Calls Reaction Podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm looking forward to sharing this segment with you where I talk with Reverend Michael Vanacor. He's a former community organizer, a father, and a faith leader in Montgomery County, Maryland. Together we talk about the world as it is and imagine what it could become. We discuss both cynicism and hope in the times that we live in. If you listen often, you know that I like to ask what about questions during our conversation. That often leads us to new ideas, and it did in this discussion. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed these conversations, please like, follow, and share. Let's get started. Hello, Reverend Michael Vanacor.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Hello, Shonda.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Thank you for making time with me today.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Thank you for having me on your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah. I'm not used to calling you Reverend Michael Vanacor. Um is it okay to just call you Michael?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Oh, please. Yes. Michael is just fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

All right. Obviously, I've known you for many, many years now, but my audience don't know who you are. Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I am a father of two. I have two under five. And I live in Wheaton, Maryland, or just just near Wheaton. And I'm a pastor. I have a church in the Wheaton area. And I am a former labor organizer and from Vermont.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

And I know that you are also a husband.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

I am a husband. That is right. Yes. I am a husband of a loving wife that I love very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Good, good, good. Um well, you know, I'm having conversations with interesting people in my life, and you happen to be one of them, mostly because of your expansive background and religion and community organizing. And we'll get into that in a bit. But I'm mostly curious, Michael, what's keeping you up at night?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

You know, I think there are two ways that I could go about this question. Uh a lot of times politics, even like global politics, are on my mind heavily. Um I think that might be where I would start. The war in the war with Iran is definitely keeping me up at night. And the uh even though there's been a ceasefire, the ongoing uh invasion of Lebanon, and that just is is worrying me and keeping me up, keeping me up at night.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Tell me, tell me why. I mean, I mean that's that's the obvious because you know, we're at war, and you know, generally, uh, I guess you know, people of faith traditions are not pro-war. But can you unpack that for me? Like go a little deeper.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

I think it's the the moral the moral element is the really the part that really that I really struggle with. It's it's such a uh blatant uh invasion or violation of another people, another country's sovereignty. It's such a blatant act of aggression. And I think about this, you know, in terms of faith, obviously, I I think more than peace, I think a lot of times our face faith traditions, we cite them as seeking peace. And that's true. Jesus said, Blessed are the peacemakers. But more than that, um there's this core notion of justice and what's just and what's right and what's wrong. And it's it's just really wrong. This is an act of aggression on the part of a powerful, the most powerful nation in the world against another nation. And I think the thing that keeps me up for the night that's hard for me, is that I don't see very much this question of the morality of the conflict being discussed in when I turn on the news or when I turn on the radio or in common popular discourse. And I think that's that's what really bothers me. It's not right, it's it's not just, it's not moral, it's not ethical, it's it's spiritually problematic, I think, for us. But you hear a lot of times it's talked about in terms of, well, are we meeting our stated objectives or are we are we winning, or who's winning, and uh what's the cost of gas, or what's the impact on our daily lives? And those things are all important, I understand. But I guess from a religious perspective, what is the what is the cost to our our immortal souls is the bigger question to me.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

I think that's right. Um, that's an interesting way that you've kind of thinking about the war in this moment because we are, well, I I think just from my snapshot and where I sit within the world, you know, the people are making means. In fact, Iran is doing a great job with making kind of retaliation means with Legos. And um, I think my 15-year-old daughter said the way that the world is approaching geopolitical politics feels like an episode of South Park.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

What does she mean by that? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Um, well, I can't really unpack what she means at the core because you know she's not here, but I think that she just means it's just kind of silliness that um uh, you know, that this is these are serious issues. Um and we feel I feel like we live in an unserious time. And it does feel like about project management outcomes and wins. And um but I but I want to come back to this thing around kind of the moral the morality of the conflict. You've been around um some time. Is it was there can you point to a particular point in our more recent histories where we had a better moral lens that you're I guess calling back into perspective?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

I don't I don't think so. And I think I've been thinking a lot about this, you know. I I remember some of the first political conversations I had. I I was born in 1986 to out my age to the to your listeners. And when I was like four or five, it was around you know the early 90s, and there I think there was the the um the first Gulf War was was coming to its conclusion. And then I really came of age, you know, I was in middle school and then high school when September 11th happened. And I think as far back as I can remember, I can remember having these debates in class. We had um like model debates in a in a world history class. It was around after the this was at this point after um the Iraq war, Iraq war had begun. And I remember even then we were just taking for granted that the um America, the United States had the right to invade other countries as as we saw fit. And I remember saying these same things. What is the morality of this? Is this right, is this wrong? And that would people that would be kind of met with uh on on deaf ears. And I think the reality is this nation, I think in more recent times, I think that the really turning point, I think, has been the conflict in Gaza and the genocide in Gaza. And because that unfolded in such a public way under such an international microscope, and really there were no consequences to anybody, any of the actors, there's no moral footing for pretty much any political leaders of major political parties, you know, major political standing to turn around and point to the US and say, we're being an aggressor or we're being doing things that are unjust, because we already let that happen with our money and our investments and our diplomacy. So I think that's a more recent time. But I think, you know, if you think back when Donald Trump said, I um it's gonna be the end of a civilization tonight if they don't do what we want them to do. And I've been thinking a lot recently, um this nation was founded upon the genocide and end of end of civilizations and native populations and enslavement. So I I don't think there is a a change in the ethical side of it. I think the way we're talking about definitely has changed because now with the conflict that's happening, I was hearing some on some podcasts that we're not trying to sugarcoat it, we're not trying to build, we're not trying to um manufacture consent anymore. We just do it and say, if you like it, go ahead. If you don't like it, too bad. So I think that's the real difference with the Trump administration is we're not trying to manufacture consent even amongst the US or broadly among amongst amongst other Western powers. That's and I don't know if that's troubling or or more just revealing, if that's better or worse, but I think that is a change.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah. I think that that is a I really like the way that you lay that out. And it made me think about um Noam Tomsky's uh Manufacturing Consent um book that I often use as a reference point over the years for community organizers. And um as a pastor and you're leading your your flock, are these the issues that they're bringing to you as well? Are these the matters that brings them into the church to look for moral guidance around the times that we lived in and around war?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Definitely. I mean, I was in I was in church, I was leading the prayers of the people. The prayers of the people in church are usually the place where you hear some of the deeper things that are on the minds of the congregation and going on in their personal lives. And I remember an older gentleman, he's a retired government employee, he raised his hand and he was just visibly upset. I think there were a tear in his eyes when he was and he was asking for prayers about the school that had been bombed in in um Iran towards the beginning of the conflict. And I could tell it wasn't just an ideological or political thing. He it he was hurting about it. And I know it's not his school or his children, um, but it was really troubling to him. And so, you know, I have my own personal political, I don't, I don't impose my personal thoughts upon the congregation. And I'll say you have to all agree with me or anything like that, but it is as much a pastoral conversation, or I have to hold this pastorally, right? On the other side of it, I had I have a member, uh a person who stands up sometimes and says, everybody in the congregation is against this administration and the whole you the whole denomination that we're in. And I had to cut them off at the end of service because I know there's some of the people in the congregation who are on the other side of the political spectrum, the political spectrum. And, you know, I have to make space pastorally for different all different points of view because we're all people, right? In a church, even a more liberal-leaning church, you're gonna have all different kinds of people. And a gentleman who is on the other side of the political spectrum came up and thanked me afterwards. So it is a very, there's just from a from a church leadership or a pastoral perspective perspective, there's just so much tension and there's so much angst in people's lives, their individual lives, and in the political, the whole political spectrum is so fraught, and the cultural space is so fraught that pastoral leadership has been very challenging in recent years. Because I could have these thoughts and I can express them to you because we've known each other a long time, or whoever is listening. Um but there's also an emotional piece to it that as a pastor, you have to you have to build commute, you have we have to build community. We're talking about building community, right? And communities are being very fractured in these days.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

So I I I I I want to stay on this thread of like like congregations and spaces because you know, but my audience may not be aware, but I was an interfaith community organizer about 20 years ago. Um, and even at that time we were losing our local institutions. But what drew me to the space was the opportunity to work across lines of differences, political differences, and whatever differences, especially in First Side County, North Carolina, when there's a lot of different that's a lot of different ways in which we can work across uh you know, faith. Um but I I found it possible. I think that's why I always draw back to that, the possibility to have conversations with people um who might not share the same things as me, but we could move things forward together. I struggle with imagining how to do that now, Michael. Um struggle with the imagination, and that's hard, you know, because that's when you have the uh possibility to create something and you can just imagine it in your head. But every time I go to think, you know, how do we do even just do this locally? Most of the people in my community um go to, you know, DC, Alexandria, or different parts of Prince George's County for their faith, if they choose faith. Um and the some of the House of Ministries are not necessarily focused on the nuance around war morality. That's why I want to stick with this theme a little bit more. It's you know, okay, we don't like Trump. Trump's a a bad person, um or um going just a different direction, you know, like how do we um practice abundance and bring more capital into our world? It feels disconnected for the real lives that people are really leading. It's just like it's it's hard to build community when there's such an air of inauthenticity, if that makes sense. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

I think it, I think it really does. I think I mean I this might well, this might sound too facile of a thing for a pastor to say, but if I say if I put on sort of my pastor's hat, or a former, like I was a I for many years I was a union organizer, right? I was organizing people who didn't have a union to join. That's how we met. Um I always encourage people to be a part of communities, of church communities, of labor unions, of communities where real people gather and they have a reason to gather frequently and get together, and if possible in person. I know we, I mean, I have people who are part of the church who are digital and only come once in a while or never come at all in person. But you have to put yourself physically in the room with somebody over time and build a relationship. You know, like the thing about the church. We're not just there, we might have some of us might have similar political opinions or can be an avenue for community organizing or for consciousness raising. But everybody's there every Sunday, and we're putting communion together, and we're like serving fellowship, and we're working out how do we get enough volunteers to diversify the volunteer pool for the fellowships of the people that bring the cookies and the coffee every every Sunday, you know, don't get burned out. Like you have to be strip away the the veneer of the social media or of the just the superficial interactions enough to just be in some kind of community with somebody um over time. And I think that's so important because there's so I think the the world is so dehumanized. Our cultural reality, our the digital spaces, you know, with with social media and AI and and the algorithms and all that stuff. It's so it's capitalized dehumanization, and I think being in real community with people is is even before we get to the the point of like trying to affect community change or like you said, bring more capital into our communities or organize anti-war movements or whatever it might be. I do think we need those real human communities. On the question of like one thing an anecdote came up to me, and it was back from my union days, and you might have been around. Back from my union days when I was at the union.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

You might, I don't think you were around at that point, um, but they sent me out to Western Maryland to organize in the Hagerstown area, and it was like a 600-person company spread across many different work sites. And they sent me out there. There's a lot of layers to the story because there the team of organizers that we had, they were I was I'm I'm mixed race. I'm I'm I'm Asian and Italian, I have a lot of different sort of racial identities and and um ethnic identities, but I'm white passing, or and I am white passing, I'm white. So all of the other organizers on staff at the time, they were African, um, African American, and they would go out and knock on the doors and they would get the door slammed in their face. And they were outright.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Sorry to interrupt you, just those who are not familiar with Western Maryland, Haker's town, how would you describe that community?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

It's a it's a that is a more rural city that's much more conservative than the part of Maryland that I live in.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

It's diverse, but it's more, it's also wider.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

And more working class. So the doors were getting slammed in the faces of these organizers. And I was the only person on staff who could get the doors to open. I think it was primarily because I'm I'm white or white passing. And I was able to build an organizing committee of workers, although there were white people, black people, and one of the people that I worked with, there were there were um somebody, people who all used to on another job worked in the correction as a corrections officers. And one of them was a Tea Party member. He wasn't a corrections officer, but he was just a member of that company. He was a member of the Tea Party. He was extremely conservative. This was back before Donald Trump. This was back when the Tea Party was really an important political force, which became turned into what we have today. This is But I got him on my organizing committee, and he articulated the reason for having a union in terms that sounded very Tea Party esque, in the sense that he was saying, you know, the boss is a dictator, and I'm for freedom, and I I don't like to be under anybody's thumb. And I sat there and I listened to him talking, and I said, yes, this is right. I agree with all of these things. But that, you know, that was your classic example of I think how you can build alliances across political difference if you're if you're really in community building and you bring you bringing people together around um common goals, achievable common goals, and a vision of change that speaks to them, you know, their their personal bread and butter realities. That campaign was not successful for for various reasons. But I always hold on to that as an example of where it went right, at least for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, I think that when you said um the part around building community or where people come together, um and what you didn't say, but I wanted to just make clearly, it's just like having a common space for under unpacking shared belief and self-interest. And those are really important pockets of power. And I think the reason why interfaith organizing in its day um for a long time was very successful is because there were so many entities where people gathered around their shared belief, whether it was neighborhood associations, um, you know, lots of people go to their uh Greek and sorority life, their faith life, um, and and labor, that there was some place in your in your world where you were going to spend time to um exercise your beliefs and lift it up to the common good. So communities could have a space to really unpack, you know, who are the leaders that really represent us. Um, but a driver to all of that too, and I wanted to connect it back to this bigger moral and what's happening right now and how we're shaped. A lot of folks are getting their information um through unique kind of algorithms, and it's not driven by uh local journalism. You know, we don't have really quality um local journalists, whether like all of these corporations really own how we think and process our local lives. Um and that breaks down our ability to really uh build community. Can you talk to me about if in your if from your perspective, both as a pastor as a former organizer, the impact of how you pro digest information is really important. Um how are your congregants because I I think that you haven't talked about their the the age of your congregation and that they're still getting their information um from from more outdated sources, I guess. I'm making the leap here, but I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah, I would say I have a c I have a a large part of the Congregation is older, retired folks. We have some retired folks and some folks towards the end of their or you know the latter part of their working career. We do have some more definitely have families with younger kids. That's another part of our base in the congregation. And then a handful of, and then we've got their kids and a handful of younger adults. And I think the definitely the older demographic is definitely getting their news from, you know, the post, the times, also the cable, you know, whether they're, you know, the the traditional um cable networks, more the sort of liberal side than, but there's some that watch watch Fox also. But there's also the huge problem of there, a lot of people are getting their news from like Facebook or and then folks are getting their news in these very small snippets from reels on Instagram, or I think they're my congregation to a certain lower extent, but there's you know, there's TikTok and there's other platforms, and there's still like Twitter, like whatever used to be Twitter X. Um, and I see, you know, my aunt is a journalist for the Washington Post, and she's given me an inside view of how that paper is being gutted, has been gutted and is being gutted. And I've watched, you know, similar things, transformation, transformations happen to the you know, the times. But I think the bigger picture that you're talking about, Shonda, is like the destruction, it's been a long time coming of the destruction of local, more local media outlets, news outlets, you know, local, whatever city newspapers or or radio uh reporting, they've all been bought out and driven under driven underwater. And they're also being at this point threatened by the like the Trump administration. So I think that gives a huge disservice. I think, you know, one of my heroes in politics, Bernie Sanders, talks about this a lot. Like the vast majority of the media, meetings of uh media are owned by what is it, whatever, five companies. Yeah, that's right. And you can see, you can see the at least I feel like I can see the bias written into these, even the especially the national reporting. And if we had better local journalism, maybe it wouldn't, um, there would be something to cut against that. But those those organs have been mostly, I think, they've been destroyed or you know, they've they're gone. And I see, you know, they're still man, the big networks are still manufacturing consent, even though the administration is like not caring to.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

But I see it in the way they cover um, you know, whenever they talk about Hezbollah, for example. Hezbollah is always an Iran-backed proxy. You could also talk about Hezbollah or even Hamas as indigenous resistance movements, um, but they're always talked about as a Iran-backed proxy, but you never hear Israel talked about as a US-backed proxy. Yeah. Right. Um, and those are simple ways that you see you see these networks. And I I definitely see the the things that people say to me in the congregation, in their prayer concerns, very much shaped by where they're getting their where they're getting their news and where they're getting where they're getting their information. And I think it's really hard. And because we are in very much this sound bite era or this this memeified, clipped up um era, I think we are all guilty of it. I mean, I spend time looking at and I get an I get something that comes across my feed, and it's a 30-second clip of something, and I'm like, oh, that's an interesting idea. And I don't spend the time to read a book about it or to really read it, read journalists. I do think there are some decent journalists in the DMV that are sure that are doing good work.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

I think the banner happens to be a good uh publication. There, you know, the the folks who were fired from the sun who started their own newspaper. Um they're great journalists representing um coverage across Maryland and a few concentrated counties. But I guess, you know, I think I'll I'll I'll um I I gotta know if I I want to make this leap with you or you know, you you um, you know, during the second, the last time, you know, the Sanders uh, you know, uh attempt um to run for office, and you were trying to agitate me to get involved again. And I just said, Michael, I just can't. Yeah. Um you're like, you've gotta. And you know, and I and I gave it a little effort, but it was mostly because I was just in support. But what I meant is that, you know, I am unfortunately at a place where I'm incredibly cynical. Um I know that my children are more data than they are um people who they're not public education is not investing in public life, um, and making sure that we have the basis of, you know, uh folks who are not just like, can they take a test, but you know, can they be the leaders that we need in the next generation? And that's really focused on this new concept I've been seeing around the internet, where there are people who are uh game designers and then there's the people who are streamers. Um and there are so many jobs that are going to go away because of AI. Um there is in is increasingly difficult for people to grow up and live in their hometowns because we have company towns, and so people have to, you know, outroof themselves and go live somewhere else. And um I think that that's really challenging. So I'm curious, um, Michael, when I lay out, you know, all of those pieces of like who our kids are and where who we're becoming, um many families are not going to labor unions. We have less now than we did even 20 years ago. Um, and um I don't see uh these multinational corporations taking their boot off our necks. And many of us are have gotten comfortable, you know, with having the boots at our necks as long as we have our phone and the things that appear that we look like we're successful, even though um we're far less off than we were um even you know one generation ago. So I'm I'm still cynical um because I think that this is just the end of an era. But of a person of faith, I'm curious if you are like, no, Shonda, there's still hope. Yes, you wouldn't be a good pastor if you said no, yes, we all should give up.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Well, I I mean you laid out a lot, and before I get to the hope piece, I just wanted to talk about a couple of things that it really resonated with.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And you said you asked me at the beginning, what is keeping me up at night? And there were two directions that I could go with it. And one was where my mind is around sort of geopolitics and the war in Iran. The other one is my own material, you know, my family's own material conditions. And we my family is very blessed. My wife and I both have professional jobs. She's a lawyer, I'm a pastor. I'm one of the few clergy that I know that actually has full-time employment. Um, so that's, you know, that's bucking the trend already. And we just bought our first house we've been renting in this area and then in New York City and back in this area since 2010. And um the only reason we were able to purchase this house was that my mother died um a couple of years ago. And the inheritance that she left, I was able to put down some money and buy this house. But we have two kids. One is in preschool, the other is in daycare, and we pay over $40,000 a year in daycare or in child care expenses. And uh we have a mortgage that is pretty high. We have house expenses. And my, you know, my wife's a nonprofit attorney, and I'm a pastor, so we're not making millions of dollars. We're comfortable, we're blessed, and we're more fortunate than many. Um, and we're losing far more money every month than we're earning. And the thing that's keeping me up at night is whether we're gonna be able to hold it together and stay in this place that we have decided to make our home. Much less, and then I think about the future that my children are gonna have. Somebody just told me yesterday that George Washington University tuition is a hundred thousand dollars a year. When it comes time for my children to go to college, I mean, where's that money gonna come from? And and so the thing that's keeping me up at night is just how how are we gonna subside, you know, continue subsisting, not to mention the longer-term goals that we might have for ourselves as a family. And then I look down the street or I look at relatives that we have or or or friends that we have, you know, if you and even in Montgomery County, you are an undocumented person and you make your living as a laborer, you know, you're destitute at this time. And we have people very close to us that are in those conditions. So the disparity is very, very um, very stark, and it's just getting starker. So I guess what I wanted to just respond, Shauna, from a sort of very personal lens. And I think those things are in large part um because of these broader trends, like you're you're you're signaling. And I think these larger macroeconomic forces, these multinational corporations that do have us have their boots on our next, I don't think they're going anyway. And I think I think that they are profiting massively from the disrupt destruction of our society and the internet and the wars that are going on. I think it's all big money for big corporate big corporate interests for capital and accumulation, accumulation of capital. So, you know, I I don't know about hope from sort of my faith tradition the prophetic tradition has always been about talking about hope, but it's also just been about telling the truth. And I always find some consolation in either myself being able to tell the truth that I see, either from the pulpit or just in the in in the conversations that I have or in the organizing that I do. Um there's there to me there's there's at least something fulfilling and meaningful, meaning making in that matters to me about unmasking some of the the illusions that are forced that are like sort of forced upon us and telling the truth about the injustices that are there. And to me, that's where hope comes from is if you can lay out where the truth is, where the contradiction is, where the injustice is, at least you've opened the way for a path to be made towards correcting it. Um, and so that's I think where I land right now. I I've never been the kind of preacher that says that everything is always getting better. I'm not a progressive in that sense. I'm not a theologically progressive or politically progressive person. I don't believe that history is inexcerptively getting better or going to a more humane place. Things seem as brutal and difficult now for the majority of the world's population as it has ever been.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Um, but I do think that I'm also not a cynic, and I I don't know that I could say with confidence everything is lost either.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Well, that's good. I feel I feel um that gives me like I look to I call them my beacons of light, the people around my life who look at the world differently. Um, and I feel that that's a great closer, um, Michael. So thank you for offering those two pathways of how you think about that question. But there might be people here who are listening and they might want to tune in to you online or visit your congregation. Where could they find you?

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Sure, you can you can come visit us at um Pilgrim United Church of Christ. That's in Wheaton. And you can go to www.pilgrimucc.org. And you can find us on Facebook and Instagram and online and come see us in person. You can find our services also at broadcast if you're you know not within visiting distance, or put out on Facebook Live and on Zoom every Sunday as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

That's great, and that's Wheaton, Maryland in Montgomery County. Wheaton, Maryland, yes. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here. I'll be in touch soon.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Okay, Shonda, thank you. It's been really, it's been really a pleasure and so much fun to talk as always. And um thank you for having the conversation with me, bringing me uh bringing me uh into your podcast world.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Awesome. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Have a great rest of your day.